How can we reduce our water use and support local ecosystems? We can use tools like turf replacement, water wise landscaping, and planting native gardens. It can seem like an overwhelming task for homeowners and businesses, but there are many resources, tools, and financial support available. The end results are beautiful spaces that support the surrounding plants and animals and make people happier too.
On this episode of 2 Degrees Out West, we talk with two water wise landscaping experts, Maria Fox in Utah and Kate Larson in Colorado, to discuss the benefits of turf replacement and how you can get started.
Maria Fox is a Utah garden coach and owner of Time 2 Grow, which works with the Utah Localscapes Program. Kate Larson is the Water and Energy program director for Resource Central in Boulder, Colorado. With their combined knowledge and experience, we take a deep dive into replacing your ornamental lawns with gorgeous native plants that help local ecosystems. We discuss drought, water use, conservation and the power of plants, and share our favorite gardening stories.
Check out the further reading section below for more resources, links, and inspiration to help you get started replacing your turf today.
Listen to our newest episode to learn about how you can replace your turf with a stunning native garden. Please consider leaving a review after listening so more folks can find our podcast.
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Thanks for listening. Let’s all work together to keep the West wild.
We would love for you to contribute to the new “What I Like About the West” Segment.
Create a 40-second voice memo telling us what you like about the West and email it to us at Jessi.Janusee@westernresourceadvocates.org. We would love to feature you on our next podcast episode! Also, please take a minute to watch this 1950’s video of Tex Williams performing the song, “That’s What I Like About the West.” His song was the inspiration for this segment.
That's What I Like About The West
- Check out the WRA Colorado turf replacement guide
- Learn more about the Resource Central Garden in a Box Program
- Book a garden coach consultation with Maria Fox
- Watch some Resource Central Water Wise Seminars
- Learn more about turf replacement in Utah with Localscapes
- Read about turf replacement efforts in Nevada
- Test your knowledge with our turf replacement quiz
Maria Fox is a Utah garden coach and owner of Time 2 Grow, which works with the Utah Localscapes Program.
Kate Larson is the Water and Energy program director for Resource Central in Boulder, Colorado.
[00:00:00] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: For the past few episodes, we’ve been talking a lot about water in the West and what we can all do to help conserve water while we’re in this multi-generational drought. So, one of the most fun and pretty easy ways that you can help is by replacing your turf. So, what that means is taking out your grass and putting in plants that are going to support local pollinators and our native species to where you live. Today on the podcast, we’re talking with Maria Fox and Kate Larson about some helpful tips to create some waterwise landscaping and to make your beautiful yard a haven for native plants and animals.
[00:00:42] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: You know, there’s been droughts in the past and there’ll be droughts in the future. Making change now really allows you to be resilient to the changes of the future. We all just need to do what we can, and this is really, it’s a win. It’s not hard to do, and it’s fun and beautiful, and you add so much more vibrancy to your yard and to your community.
[00:01:06] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Welcome to Two Degrees Out West, a podcast where we celebrate all of the incredible things about the Western United States, where we also talk about how we can all work together to make sure that the West stays thriving, beautiful, diverse, and amazing for future generations. I’m your host, Jessi Janusee, the multimedia storyteller here at WRA.
[00:01:26] And let’s get started talking about turf replacement. Today on the podcast we’re talking about turf replacement with Maria Fox, a Utah Garden coach and owner of Time 2 Grow, which works with the Utah Localscapes Program and Kate Larson, program director for Resource Central in Boulder, Colorado. Hey guys.
[00:01:44] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Hi.
[00:01:45] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Hi. Thanks for having us.
[00:01:46] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, thanks for being here. So, I’d love to have both of you kind of intro yourselves and tell us a little bit about your organization/businesses and just the work that you’re doing. If Maria, you want t go first, that would be awesome.
[00:02:00] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Okay. I’ve been a garden coach in Utah for about three years.
[00:02:06] I used to own a landscaping company back in the day for several years, and I learned that some of the major challenges that homeowners were having were to replace plants due to climate, or they planted the wrong thing in the wrong location. We have discovered that education is so much more important.
[00:02:29] And then I do also partner with Localscape here in Utah because I’m really passionate about Waterwise Landscaping.
[00:02:36] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Awesome. We’ll get more into Waterwise Landscaping in a little bit. Alright, Kate, are you ready?
[00:02:42] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yes, I am. I’m Kate Larson. I’m the program director for Water and Energy programs at a nonprofit called Resource Central.
[00:02:49] And we’re based in Boulder, Colorado, but really work kind of across the state. And I’ve been with Resource Central for almost 15 years and I’m really just seeing incredible growth in the interest in water conservation, both in communities, but then also just on an individual homeowner level, our mission is to put conservation into action.
[00:03:08] So everything that we do is very focused on boots on the ground, you know, one home at a time, one business at a time, reducing their dependence on non-renewable resources. So, we work in the areas of waste reduction and water and energy conservation in our water conservation programs. We work with 47 different water providers in Colorado and we help them to implement water conservation programs at scale.
[00:03:34] So, you know, we offer really large-scale programs that many of them can sign onto, and our focus is really on reducing outdoor water use through landscape change and efficiency.
Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller:
So cool. First, I want to go into defining turf replacement. That might be a new term for some listeners. I’m sure others of you are like, I’ve already zero-scaped my lawn four years ago.
[00:03:56] But, you know, make it accessible to all and just talk about Waterwise landscaping and why this is really important. Whoever wants to define turf replacement, that’d be cool. And then maybe the other one can define Waterwise landscaping.
Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director:
I’ll go for the turf replacement because that’s something we do a lot of at Resource Central.
[00:04:15] You know, we’re really focused on helping people take out a portion of their lawn, and we focus really on areas that we call non-functional or non-essential turf. And so that’s really areas that people are not using, not walking on their dogs aren’t playing, their kids aren’t playing on it. It’s just ornamental and really there’s lots of plants that you could put in place of that that use a lot less water through our programs. You know, we’re really focused on, again, taking out high water landscapes and it usually ends up being Kentucky Bluegrass and replacing it with native or adaptable plants.
[00:04:53] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Cool. I want to do that. Alright Maria. You mentioned Waterwise Landscaping before, so I feel like this is perfect.
[00:04:58] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: I actually sent out this question to my social media followers, and it was interesting. I have to say that about, I dare to say 60% this is what they said, “Lawn is easier because you have to do less weeding and it is cheaper to install.”
[00:05:19] I had few that said that they just can’t afford to replace it. I had few that said they don’t want to kill plants because they have no idea what plants work and don’t work. Some that said that the HOA gives them a lot of problems and, you know, stops them from wanting to do it and it’s less attractive. And we’re talking here about how it is a mindset that for some reason it is less attractive.
[00:05:47] And you know, it’s all about, I had one say the words, “it’s just a jumble of plants.” We do need to design it properly. We need to plant appropriate plants. So, it doesn’t look like just a wild forest. But I still come back to, there needs to be more education, more understanding, more of, of a shift in the way we think about plants in our environment.
[00:06:15] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, and just a follow up question to that, just thinking about it in my mind too, like when we’re talking about native plants too, it is so cool for the ecosystem, right? Because it is better for the pollinators, better for the other plant species and animal species that thrive in these climates too, right?
[00:06:32] So then you’re really helping to strengthen the ecosystem that is native here, which is, it’s such a win-win. Your lawn’s beautiful, it’s thriving, and then everything around is happy, right?
[00:06:44] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah. Absolutely. And that’s something we hear from people who have done these landscape conversions we hear all the time that they’re just in awe of the bees and the butterflies and the birds that are suddenly in their yard. And they love going outside and seeing pollinators taking advantage of their new landscapes. Great for pollinators, but it’s also great for people and people just love it.
[00:07:09] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, I’m always trying to get cute photos of bees on my dandelions.
[00:07:13] I’m like, yes, look at them. I just got in my garden for the first time, like two weeks ago. You know, it’s the first time this spring it’s been warm enough to get outside and just do a little bit of cleanup and kind of assessment. And it was so funny because I was like finding toads, finding bees, finding butterflies.
[00:07:34] And it really spoke to my soul. Because I’m like, everything’s already out, like we’re transitioning to spring. But of course, on the day-to-day when I’m just rushing around in my life, I don’t take the time to see all of that. So yeah, it was just kind of one of those beautiful moments when I’m like, oh yes, the creatures have returned! They are like awakening!
[00:07:51] So, I wanted to get into just this idea of why people are into lawns. I feel like it’s a whole big issue, right? I think a lot of people are kind of hesitant to get rid of their lawns and they think it looks really beautiful and clean. So, I just want to talk a little bit about why do you guys think there’s that hesitation, and why should we overcome that fear of getting rid of our lawns?
[00:08:18] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: So, I really think that lawns are cultural. They’re kind of baked into the way we grew up. I think almost everyone has, you know, foundational memories of playing in grass or, you know, sitting in grass and, and really so, you know, for my generation and generations before mine, it’s part of sort of the fabric of this American way of life.
[00:08:40] And so, you know, it really needs to be a paradigm shift across the board. And I think that, you know, kind of changing the idea that green, you know, large expanses of green lawn are a sign of abundance and prosperity, and so we need to present an alternative vision for that. And we really need to get, you know, cities and HOAs and business parks to really convert their green spaces.
[00:09:07] And we need to reflect this new standard of what a beautiful landscape should look like and can look like. And even, you know, individuals in neighborhoods can, you know, can do that as well by converting their front yards. You know, I think so many people decide how their yard should look by looking at their neighbors.
[00:09:25] There’s this kind of, you know, comparison happening a lot. And so I think that, you know, the more we get these conversions happening, the more it’s going to change that mindset. And it might take a generation for, you know, for it to really be like, what does abundance look like and what does prosperity look like in the landscape?
[00:09:44] But I think we can get there, and I think that it’s just going to take, you know, everyone kind of doing their part and to reflect the new landscape of the future.
[00:09:55] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. The whole, you know, white picket fence, two dogs, beautiful grass, really is in our cultural zeitgeist so strongly. Like we just have this vision of success, right?
[00:10:06] Like you were saying, that is prosperity. So, I love that idea of reframing and being like, actually abundance and prosperity and a beautiful space looks pretty different, right? Than this idea of the lawns.
[00:10:18] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if you just think about, you know, driving into an HOA rather than, you know, having this sign out in the front when you’re driving in and this, and grass all around it.
[00:10:30] If you have, you know, a more local appropriate landscape, it’ll take a little bit of time, but I think people will just begin to associate that, and they’re beautiful, the kinds of landscapes we’re talking about. Like Maria was saying, we’re not talking about rocks and very austere landscapes. These are abundant, flowering, beautiful landscapes with lots of interesting rocks and interesting things to look at and I think that, you know, we just need to see more examples of that and, and just change the mindset.
[00:11:03] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, and I think one of the coolest parts about it is that personalization, you know, is finding your style and your vibe and being able to really tailor your landscape instead of the same kind of, you know, just basic yard that’s not really giving back and isn’t that visually appealing. Maria, I was wondering if you did find that it was more time and more money to do this landscaping? Because I feel like it’s probably not. I’ve planted a bunch of native plants and every year some come back, some don’t, some are doing better than others and it’s cool to watch that process and then I scatter some more seeds and watch it grow, you know and some do better.
[00:11:43] Yeah. Just in my experience, I feel like it hasn’t been harder to maintain that versus a lawn.
[00:11:51] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: As far as maintenance, I personally think if it’s done right, definitely not more maintenance. I’m on an acre and when we bought our home, it was just grass. It was just lawn, and we are now down to 30% and the rest are just plants and we’ve mulched.
[00:12:10] I still hate mowing my 30% lawn because it’s something I have to do. But I so enjoy the rest. As far as money, yes, you may have a little bit more money than you’re spending to install your plants and your drip system, but there’s a lot of money that involves, you know, sprinklers when you’re doing grass.
[00:12:32] So I don’t think that portion of it is going to be different. I think the challenge is when people maybe have an existing landscape and they are faced with, oh, so now I have to pull all this out and get rid of it and start from scratch, and it’s just time and money, of course. And it’s just a lot of effort on the homeowners side when they can just leave the grass and, you know, water it and occasionally feed it and just mow it.
[00:13:00] But I have seen examples and I know we have what’s called Localscape here in Utah and they have a website, localscape.com. They’ve been working tirelessly since the beginning of 2011, trying to teach and educate homeowners here in Utah and give them the examples and people can go on their website and.
[00:13:25] And at the end of the day, it’s not more work. It’s not more money. It’s so much better for our environment and we do get that biodiversity that is just not there otherwise.
[00:13:41] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah. And I think that there’s waterwise landscapes for everyone. You know, some people like that very clean and manicured look.
[00:13:47] And I’ve seen lots of examples where it’s modern and you know, really embraces a very clean aesthetic. And then there’s people who love that jumbled kind of cottage garden look and feel. And so there’s a place for that too. And I think that the more we can do to show examples of things that fit. Not everyone likes the same thing and not everyone, and so we have to make sure that we’re presenting options for people that just fit their taste. So, I think that, you know, storytelling and just showing examples of other homeowners just like you or other communities just like yours and you know, here’s what they were able to do.
[00:14:30] That’s something that Resource Central has tried to do a lot of, you know, we have a website called waterwiseyards.org that is just, we call like an inspiration hub. So, it’s people who have gone through these conversions, submitting pictures of their projects and you know, talking about how much money they spent, how much time it took them, their level of landscaping knowledge going into it, and then, you know, giving little description or advice to people so that, you know, homeowners can say, okay, this is someone who had $500 and two weekends. I have $500 and two weekends. I can do something like this. But without those examples and opportunities from others, it’s really hard to say, you know, you should do this when they don’t have good sense of what’s possible. And I’ll say, you know, talking about money, there’s a whole sector of the economy that is based around caring for turf or caring for lawns.
[00:15:24] I mean, you think about, and we’ve all seen the commercials, you know, fertilizers and weed killers and mowers and, you know, you go into a hardware store, it’s a whole section of the hardware store. So there really is, you know, an economy and it’s not, it’s not without its cost to have a lawn.
[00:15:44] And I always think of a homeowner that you think about weeding. Anyone’s had a dandelion infestation that they don’t want. Some people love dandelions in their yard, but that they don’t want, you know, someone was saying they spent, you know, hours and hours hand pulling dandelions out of their yard. And that was just the moment that they were like, I’m done with grass.
[00:16:04] And so I think that it’s just a different kind of work outside. It’s not, you know, putting gas in your gas-powered mower and pushing it around the yard or, you know, aerating or fertilizing. It’s weeding and so it’s just, you know, a different, or deadheading or things like that, so it’s just a different kind of effort.
[00:16:24] And I think that it’s just, again, going to take people a little bit of time to get used to it. But I hear all the time that once their garden is established, they’re spending a lot less time, you know, it’s usually a weekend, you know, at the beginning, middle, and end of the season kind of cleaning up their beds, but that they’re not out there every week doing mowing.
[00:16:47] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. And as I was saying before, I think it’s so much better personally because then when you are doing those three weekends a season, you have your hands in the dirt, right? It’s not that you’re just spraying it with fertilizer and then pushing a mower around. You’re holding your plants, touching your plants, weeding, in the bed, seeing how many worms are in there, seeing all the different bugs and like critters and I just feel like it’s a way cooler experience, right. A way more immersive experience that lets you feel connected that I find really powerful.
Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director:
Yeah. It’s much more intimate with your plants, you know, you’re really getting to know them versus, you know, just mowing it down.
[00:17:27] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: There’s a whole thing about horticulture therapy and that’s not talked a whole lot about it, but I’m from overseas, I’m from Sweden and it’s interesting for me, I’ve been here for 21 years and it’s been interesting for me to see how, well, I hate to use, use the word, but the lack of interest in, of the nature. But there is so much power, so much healing done in nature and like, like you guys are saying that, you know, there is a difference between having your hands in the soil versus pushing a lawnmower.
[00:18:04] There’s, we can talk hours about that and, but you have to once again, experience it to understand the value of it.
[00:18:13] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. I wonder too, do you guys ever run into, you know, people who are like, oh, I have a black thumb, I just am no good at this. Like I couldn’t have a garden because I don’t really know where to start.
[00:18:23] And do you have any experience turning those folks around and showing them that they can do it?
[00:18:30] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Yeah, I actually hear it all the time too. And that’s actually one of the things I do hear quite frequently when I’m out in the homeowner’s backyard, that’s what they say, “I kill everything.” And then they want suggestions on new plants and based on, you know, the level of comfort, like how comfortable the homeowner is, I will suggest plants that I know are a little bit harder to potentially kill. And that’s another thing that you know, if you’re not, if you feel insecure, you’re not, you’re worried, then let’s just start with plants that are more tolerant and that are easier to grow and this boosts self-confidence and with the self-confidence comes that you want to plan other things, and so I firmly believe that nobody has a black thumb. I don’t believe that. I do believe it’s just a little bit of education. I’ve had experiences with clients where I went in, I had this cute teacher lady who wanted a rose garden.
[00:19:33] She just, she was on a small property, and she had just a handful of roses and she just said, they just never do great for me. And this was a couple of years ago. And I just showed her, you know, taught her how to take care of these roses and she just keeps texting me every, she sent me these messages of, look at my beautiful roses.
[00:19:52] Look at how, you know, she’s just so excited that she is able to maintain it, and that’s what it’s all about is teaching so that people can feel empowered to take care of their own yards, their own green spaces.
[00:20:09] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: I hear that all the time. So, we have a program called Garden in a Box where we sell pre-planned garden kits so that people get a plant, a planting and care guide, and a plant by number map that are designed by local landscape designers.
[00:20:22] And we hear all the time that, you know, people are like, I’ve never been able to keep anything alive and this, I’ve been able to keep alive. So, you know, I think that for us, we really try to make it so easy for people to get experience with perennial plants and low water landscaping, and you know, many of them are a hundred square feet, so it’s very doable.
[00:20:44] And so we have people that are coming back year after year and taking out a larger, larger portion of their yard. But you know, we’re kind of starting at a manageable amount and we’re giving people all of the knowledge and tools that they need to keep them alive. And so I think that there’s probably lots of programs like that in communities outside of Colorado, but, I think that is a big piece of this is that people are scared.
[00:21:09] No one wants to kill a plant, that never feels good, and so sometimes people are hesitant to jump into it, but there’s, so, I mean, increasingly more and more resources, but already right now there’s a lot of resources out there that help people to navigate, you know, how to take care of waterwise landscapes, and obviously that’s what Maria does for her job.
[00:21:33] And so there’s you know, hopefully there’s people like that in Colorado that are really helping people to make that shift and, and keep things alive.
[00:21:40] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. And I think too, there’s a lot of people who are well-intentioned and want to get into gardening, right? And they go to their local nursery, or maybe their just, their local, you know, Walmart or Home Depot because that’s what’s available to them. And those plants aren’t necessarily the right plants. Right. And then they just look really briefly. They’re like, okay, partial shade, sun. You know, like I definitely was one of those people back in the day where you’re just like, how much water does it need?
[00:22:07] How much sun does it need? Sure. Plant it. I feel like that really sets people up for failure in a lot of ways. Like For sure. And you’re just kind of picking things based on if they look good in the store. Right. Which is not, yeah. Which is just not how they’re going to look in your yard necessarily and how they’ll work there.
[00:22:24] So it’s really cool that you have these resources on your website, Kate, about the different plants for Colorado and then Maria, that you’re out there guiding people to use the correct plants. I love that. Yeah. I hope that people listen to this and get inspired and feel like they can take agency and get in their gardens.
[00:22:41] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: And there is such an amazing sense of pride. I mean, maybe some people feel that way about their lawn, but I see it all the time with people with low water landscapes. Just, you know, they feel so much pride when their neighbors walk by and say, I love your garden. I love seeing what’s blooming.
[00:22:57] They just feel like just so different about it because it’s a real showpiece of their hard work, and I will take this as an opportunity to make a plug for local nurseries. There are so many amazing small local nurseries out there who have really diverse and a wide variety of native and adaptable plants and really knowledgeable workers. And so, you know, if you are interested or looking to get into low water landscaping, that is a great place to start, you know, because there’s many issues with buying plants at big box stores and you know, a lot of them are treated with chemicals that aren’t good for pollinators and are linked to pollinator decline.
[00:23:46] So really kind of being selective and voting with your money about the kinds of plants that you want in your yard and there’s amazing local nursery resources.
[00:23:57] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Yeah, that actually is true. And another issue that I have come across a lot is actually people saying, well, I Googled it and it said I could plant this plant but it died.
[00:24:09] And I’m like, yes, because you’re probably finding something on Google from maybe Florida and we don’t have Florida environment. And so once again, we’re back to educating. But I have to give a plug to all the universities. I mean, if you go to your local university extension, like we have Utah State Extension, they have so much information for homeowners too, whether it’s plant selection or, you know, they provide master gardener classes.
[00:24:42] And I’ve been through all these classes just so that I know what’s out there. And I’m sure it’s the same way, whether in your Colorado or Nevada, doesn’t matter what state you’re in, there are resources out there. We just need to find the resources that are local for us and for our environment.
[00:24:58] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yes, I will make a similar plug to the Colorado State University Extension Office. They’re just a great resource and we recommend people go to them all the time. They have a master gardener program where they’re there to answer plant questions and to help people really find resources and things that work for them.
[00:25:19] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, we have University of Nevada Reno here and same deal. They have a really cool extension program and plant sales and the Desert Farming Institute. So many cool things. And then also our local Arboretum is a great resource as well. They’re always doing plant sales and workshops and classes, so it’s definitely, it’s definitely out there.
[00:25:39] Our local, one of our local nurseries, Rail City is amazing and I’ve taken so many classes there too, and they’ll just do free classes, which is so rad. I took a really cool hoop house building one pretty recently. If there’s not a direct person you can hire or maybe a nonprofit like Resource Central, start Googling.
[00:25:59] Yeah. Like garden class near me, farm class near me, vegetable class, hoop house. And you will find those people in your area that can give you all that knowledge or just go bother the people at the local nursery. I mean, not bother. That’s their job. Yeah.
[00:26:12] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And exactly, that’s what they’re there for.
[00:26:17] Yeah, they love to talk plans. And I’ll, you know, Resource Central has a free open to the public webinar series that I was just hosting one last night about water wise irrigation. So, anyone in any state can, you know, can come and learn about the basics of Waterwise landscaping. So I’ll, you know, encourage people to look at our website for those, there’s going to be quite a few throughout the summer, but there’s, I know there are so many classes, you know, local and more national that that really help people find out where to get started.
[00:26:54] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Also, when we’re talking a little bit about the expenses, there’s also a lot of turf buyback programs. I think there’s one in both Utah and Colorado, right?
[00:27:04] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow:There is in Utah. Yep. Utah, actually, the state has quite a bit of money, I mean millions of dollars to help homeowners to replace their turf. The unfortunate right now is that for the homeowner to get access to these funds, they have to be in a city where the city is following the rules, the regulations so that they can receive this funding. And not all cities in Utah are on board. That’s the unfortunate, but there’s a big chunk that are, and so, and they just raised it from, I believe, $1 a square foot to $3 a square foot. The buyback amount.
[00:27:47] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, we’re actually going to be doing a series in Salt Lake about that on May 1st, I think we start the water wise programming, so that’s really, that’s really great. Do you know, have you helped homeowners go through that process before Maria? Like getting the buyback.
Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow:
I have not, I’ve guided them where to go on the website, but I have not helped them. Like I said, there’s, I go all over the northern part of Utah and there’s not a whole lot of cities that are part of these rebate programs yet.
Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller:
[00:28:20] Hopefully with the expansion of the program and more funding, more cities can get into it. I really, yeah, I hope that, I know here in Nevada, Vegas is a really big turf replacement spot, but Reno is not as much and it’s just, I think we have less turf because we’re higher elevation and it dumps snow on us all the time.
[00:28:40] And I know for Vegas, they’re very conscious of their turf. So, it’s just a little bit of a different vibe. But yeah, I mean the more we can get that ornamental turf out of here, the better it’s going to be. So how about in Colorado, Kate?
[00:28:55] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah, so we were very excited. Last year there was a bill passed to provide statewide funding for turf removal, which was a great step in the right direction.
[00:29:04] It’s just a two-year funding bill. So, this is the, the first year. So, there are a lot of programs, and similar to what Maria was saying about Utah, it’s really dependent on the city and what their take on turf removal is, if they have a turf removal program or not. So, some of them have, you know, a cash for grass program, like a dollar per square foot or things like that.
[00:29:26] And then Resource Central, we work with about 20 different water providers to implement our lawn replacement program. And we take a little bit of a different approach to it in that we’re not providing a financial rebate, we’re actually helping with the work. So, through our program, a homeowner can use a city incentive to pay for us to come out and physically remove their lawn.
[00:29:51] So we take it out and we haul it away and compost it. And then they also can use the incentives for the water wise plants through our garden in a box program. And what we found is that kind of combining those two things like, we’re going to do the most physically demanding part of this job for you. We’re going to take out your turf.
[00:30:08] You’re going to be left with a bare dirt patch that you can plant into, and then also pairing that with garden in a box. Then people get a design and the plants, and so it really does a lot of the project for them. And so, we’ve seen a lot of growth and interest in that program over the last few years. And you know, particularly with this additional statewide funding, you know, more and more homeowners are going to be able to participate in it.
[00:30:32] But I, you know, I think funding is really one of the biggest challenges of implementing turf removal because a lot of, you know, the way that it works is cities providing, you know, buying down the cost of these conversions. And then, you know, if you look at HOAs and commercial properties and municipal properties when they’re looking at acres of conversion, that bill really, really adds up. That’s really where a lot of the ornamental or non-functional turf is. You think about, you know, business parks that might have like five acres of Kentucky Bluegrass and how much water they could save by converting that to native grass.
[00:31:11] But the finances aren’t quite there yet.
[00:31:14] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Yeah, it, it reminded me that they do offer, like there are a few other programs here in Utah, like they’ll, pay for your smart controller, if you replace your existing to a smart controller. Flip your strip, that’s been actually very popular because it’s a smaller area and people feel like it’s doable, so there are some rebates to flip your strip.
[00:31:34] And then Localscape has also created an opportunity for people to design their yards according to their recommended design, which is, you know, having this central open, maybe lawn, or it doesn’t have to be a lawn, but this central open place in the center and all your other functional areas are around it anyway, so if you follow their guidelines, you can get funding there too.
[00:31:59] So, so there are, there are some things going on. I mean, Washington County, Weber Basin, the Central Utah Water District, all these have their own programs as well. So, there is money out there. And a lot of times people don’t know how to get to it. And so that’s another thing that we need to be educating people how to get to these resources, the money that’s there.
[00:32:23] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. And then the flip your strip, is that like your sidewalk grass strip?
[00:32:27] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Yes.
[00:32:27] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Cool. I don’t even have sidewalks where I live, so, they’re not a problem. I’m rural.
[00:32:32] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah, they’re huge wasters of water because they’re really hard for a normal sprinkler system to water, so they’re like notorious for overspray and overwatering.
[00:32:41] So yeah. This year we have one of our garden in boxes is called curbside charm and it’s targeted at those sidewalk strips.
[00:32:49] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Are there any plants that you guys really recommend for your state that you’ve just been like, oh man, this plant does well every time, it’s beautiful, people love it. Or a couple plants that you would say, if someone’s like, okay, I live in Colorado, or I live in Utah and I want to get started, is there a couple you would just say, are a good thing to start looking at?
[00:33:09] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Well, it depends if we’re talking trees or shrubs. I mean, if it was trees, I would really recommend crab apple trees. And people get, oh, I don’t want that mess on my property. But the varieties that they sell now, they have persistent fruit, so crab apple, apples on them. In other words, they stay on the tree and the birds take care of it in the wintertime.
[00:33:32] And it is so fun to just watch the wildlife during the winter, and they do really well here in Utah, in our climate, in our soil. If we look at shrubs, lilac does really well here. And once again, people have this notion that, oh, I don’t want that big thing like my grandma had in her backyard.
[00:33:50] There are so many fun new hybrid varieties that you know, only get three to five feet tall and wide. But I have to say, perennials are just, the native perennials are just awesome, and they don’t necessarily have to be native in order for them to do well. But you’ve got echinacea, you’ve got the Hardy Salvias, Agastache, I don’t know how to say it, but there’s a lot of, you know, the hummingbird mint. There’s a lot of perennials that do really well here in Utah.
[00:34:22] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Oh man, I want a giant lilac, like bring it on. How big can it get? I don’t think it would survive here, but…
[00:34:29] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Well, there is one that you need to look into. It’s called Scent and Sensibility, and it only gets two and a half feet tall and about five feet wide, and it reblooms nonstop throughout the season.
[00:34:41] It’s not just in the spring, but it gives you flowers, the pink flowers, all season long.
[00:34:47] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: That sounds beautiful.
[00:34:48] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah, so I’ll just kind of talk about some. So, I recommend that people go and look at the Garden in a Box Plants. They’re all sold out for, for this year, but they’re going to be back in June for our late summer sale.
[00:35:00] But you can still go online and look at all the gardens and look at all the plant lists and really all of those plants. You know, Maria was saying this earlier, but really we focus on picking plants that we know do really well in Colorado and are easy to grow and easy to establish. But a few of my favorites, so I’m a huge Poppy fan, so there’s some really great poppies that do really well in Colorado and they’re just such like a beautiful pop of color in your yard.
[00:35:26] Let me think about, so some other ones. I also am a very large coneflower or echinacea fan. I just love the kind of cone center and just the texture of it is, is really beautiful. Also, you know, there’s quite a few different kinds of penstemons that I’m fans of and really attract a lot of pollinators and butterflies and hummingbird in the garden.
[00:35:44] In the box kits we often have, you know, pine leaf, things like that. And then my all time favorite plants, which is very basic, you know, but I love black eyed susans. I just, again, the color and the black center with the bright yellow flower is whenever I see them, they just make me happy.
[00:36:03] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: I’m almost surprised you guys didn’t say lupin, because that’s like, native and everywhere, but no, not as much in Utah?
[00:36:10] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Nope. No. Lupin does not do well here in Utah. People try and some few succeed.
[00:36:17] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Hmm. Maybe it’s better in like, I’m in higher elevation, so like that’s one of the first plants I see pop up in the spring, you know? It’s so beautiful. I love it. All the different colors.
[00:36:28] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: We have pasqueflower, that’s also one of my favorites.
[00:36:31] It’s like it blooms before even my tulips bloom. My pasqueflower comes out and all of us at Resource Central, you know, big plant lovers and, and we all discuss about our pasqueflower when they start coming up. So, it’s definitely like one of the first pops of color. They’re this beautiful, kind of like, my kids love it cause the leaves are kind of furry and it’s a beautiful purple flower.
[00:36:54] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: One thing that is quite interesting too, is I was thinking about yarrow as well. Some of the plants that Kate was mentioning, that some people say, oh no, that’s invasive. If I plant a yarrow, it’s going to take over my yard. Yes. In some states that might be the case. But where we are in a dry climate, no it does not.
[00:37:14] It gets big, but it will not reseed itself as easy because we just don’t have the moisture for it to become invasive. So that’s important too, to remember that it might be invasive on the East coast, but it’s not invasive here on the West coast and vice versa.
[00:37:33] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, I have a little bit of yard in the front of my property.
[00:37:36] I have two acres. That’s where, like my kid swings at, so, you know, that’s our little, our little bit of grass. And when I bought the house, I had already there was a stand of yarrow just in the middle of the yard, you know, just doing its thing. I don’t know how it got there when it got there, but I like, it was like seeing an old friend, you know?
[00:37:53] I’m like, I love that you’re just here in this yard by yourself doing this, you know? And every year it comes back and it’s just so happy. And it even handles my son driving over it in his like little, you know, plastic ATV that he has. It doesn’t even care. It’s like, I’m just hanging out. It’s a great plant.
[00:38:10] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Yeah, I love Yarrow and there’s just so many different varieties of it. Some of our past gardens have had like a really beautiful red yarrow. It’s, yeah, I feel like it’s an unsung hero of the, the Waterwise plant world.
[00:38:22] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yes. I feel like we’re all way more cognizant of climate change now, right? Like that’s become a bigger thing for all of us. And I think some people they might get overwhelmed and think like, oh, is this is changing to native plants and reducing the turf really going to make that big of an impact? You know? I think it’s easy to get defeatist about it and just feel like, ugh. But I wanted your thoughts about it and maybe also some of your success stories of like how you feel it’s awesome and we should be doing it.
[00:38:52] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: I’ll start. So, I mean, I think that planting a Waterwise garden or doing a turf conversion, it’s the same thing as recycling. Like, you know, you have to take personal action and personal responsibility for creating a future that is going to be livable for your kids and my kids.
[00:39:11] And so I think that, you know, if you get overly caught up in, you know, if I don’t recycle this container, you know, is it really going to make a difference? And if everyone thought that way, then there really wouldn’t be any change. And so, it’s that, you know, think global, act local. And so, I think that doing turf conversion is really the best thing that people can do on a really hyper-local level to conserve water and everybody is going to need to do their part because in the West our demand is really, you know, outpacing supply. And so, this is in our lifetime, you know, there is going to be a big change in the amount of water that we’re going to be able to use on an individual basis. And I think outdoor watering is really the low-hanging fruit of water conservation still. And I will say the other thing that we’ll see is the price of water will continue to rise. It’s not going to go down anytime soon. And so, you know, being personally, you know, resilient and saying, you know, I can’t continue to put so much water down because in five years or in 10 years, the cost of that water is going to be so high that it’s, you know, going to continually eat into my monthly budget. And then also, you know, no matter where you live in the West, eventually a drought will come for you.
[00:40:32] You know, it’s, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when you know there’s been droughts in the past and there’ll be droughts in the future. Making change now really allows you to be resilient to the changes of the future. In 2002, Colorado had a really devastating drought and there was a ton of landscape loss because there was so much high-water landscape out there.
[00:40:53] You know, by planting drought resilient plants now that means that when there is an inevitable drought in your community, you’re not going to be experiencing that landscape loss. You know, whether or not, you know, your individual action is, you know, immediately going to be changed to solving a problem about climate change.
[00:41:15] I think that we all just need to do what we can, and this is a really, it’s a win. It’s not hard to do and it’s fun and beautiful and you add so much more vibrancy to your yard and to your community by doing a project like this. And so, to me it’s just a win-win across the board.
[00:41:35] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Yeah, I have to agree with Kate in every aspect.
[00:41:38] You know, it’s interesting, I’ve seen a lot of frustrated homeowners that say, why do we have to cut back on our water usage when farmers are wasting, big businesses or corporate offices, they’re wasting the water and why is it always us? And yet it’s interesting that in America, 83% of all the land is owned by the private individual.
[00:42:03] We have 40 million acres of turf throughout United States and when you stop and think about the amount of turf grass we’re trying to take care of and the drought is not just here in the West, we are seeing it happening all over the world. Europe is struggling with drought and so to stick our head in the soil that we dug and say, it’s not my problem, or it’s not going to make a difference whether I make the change or not.
[00:42:36] You know, that that’s just hiding for a, for very temporarily because it’s going to affect, and unfortunately, as Kate brought up, that water is going to be expensive. Sometimes reality doesn’t hit until it hits our wallets. And so, maybe it’s better if we are ahead of the game rather than being forced to something that’s not going to be pleasant.
[00:42:56] And when that does happen, I mean, I know throughout Utah they are putting in water meters. Every city is now mandated to put water meters on all outdoor watering. And so we’re all going to be paying for it, whether it’s install or whether it’s watering our green lushes lawns that we want so desperately.
[00:43:17] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah, and this can get into a whole other thing about the Colorado River and how much we are all on that river. Most of us are using that watershed and yeah, how difficult it is and how it’s just continuing to deplete.
[00:43:29] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: So speaking of waterwise, I mean, there’s so much we can do when it comes to buying the proper plans, but the best way to take care of what we have and to avoid weed nightmare, as I call it, is to install drip system, so having drip system irrigation, and what you’re doing is you are putting the water right on that plant and all the other, like right around that plant, it’s going to be dry after all we are in a drought most of the time, and so when there’s no moisture, you don’t have any weeds growing and that water goes directly to the plant.
[00:44:10] So your plant flourishes while your weeds eventually dry out. So having a waterwise landscape is not just having waterwise plants, but also having a waterwise irrigation system and planting plants that have the similar needs. You know, not planting water hogs right next to one that is, is more drought tolerant because we just want to have an environment where they’re working together, but also helping each other.
[00:44:46] Basically creating a microclimate in our personal garden.
[00:44:51] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: And Resource Central runs an irrigation auditing, you know, like sprinkler inspection program with over 20 different water providers in Colorado. And I know that Utah has a very similar program. So, there are community resources that sort of help people do like sprinkler checkups and learn about your sprinkler system and identify, you know, common problems and really help you dial in your watering.
[00:45:14] There’s a lot of really good resources out there for people as well.
[00:45:19] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: I know here locally where I live, we have a sprinkler supply. It’s just a local business that sells irrigation. And this particular company, you know, they’ve got branches everywhere, but they’re so awesome with their customer service.
[00:45:35] You’ll go in and you’ll say, okay, this is what I’m planning to do or trying to do, could you guys help me? And so, my recommendation is to find local businesses that do specialize in irrigation and not, once again, go to those big box orders where you’re kind of left on your own. You know, because there’s just no professional help to be able to guide you.
[00:45:58] So find local resources. But I do know also like Localscape and Utah State Extension, they have information about it online for us here in Utah. Anyway, that we can find those resources as a guide.
[00:46:12] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. This is going to be one of my big projects this year is I put in my irrigation in 2020 and I felt like it was never watering equally and it wasn’t, it was just like not working, you know? So I’m going to go through and pull that all out and then rethink of how I set it up. Also, my water pressure, because I’m on a well, so that’s a little rough. But yeah, I’m going to tackle it, guys. It’s worth it.
[00:46:35] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: You can do it. We believe in you.
[00:46:37] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Thanks. One thing we could just end on, is there any other tips or tricks you just want to mention before we close out?
[00:46:45] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: I want to bring up the options of removing lawn. That’s a big question too that people have, how do I remove my lawn? You know, do I take a shovel out there and do one piece at a time? And there are actually a few ways that people can get rid of their lawn.
[00:47:03] They can use a sod cutter, which I personally think is the easiest. You do have to rent a machine and run it, and it is a little physical demanding, but it is the best way. But then you have to see if you can either recycle it or, the sod that has been removed, take it to green waste. You can till, some people till, some people solarize.
[00:47:26] And then there’s the new sheet mulching, the lasagna method that some people use, which is basically putting cardboard on your lawn and then mulching it really heavy and allowing it to break down and eventually your grass dies. Like the roots actually die because lack of oxygen and sunshine.
[00:47:48] So, so yeah, there are a few ways, but that one needs a little bit more patience because it takes about a season to do the sheet mulching. But there are a few ways that we can remove our lawns. It is physically intense sometimes, but it is very rewarding as we’ve been discussing.
[00:48:05] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yeah. The sheet mulching is what I did for where my garden is now, which was great. I just, yeah, I threw down cardboard, threw down mulch. Didn’t, you know, I’m in a desert climate so it doesn’t take much to kill things out here. And then I’ve just planted my raised beds over it, you know, just built them right over it. And now I have a garden.
[00:48:24] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: One thing that I really would like to add, and that’s mulching if you want a water wise garden.
[00:48:30] Applying at least three to four inches of real good compost, organic, like not organic necessarily, but organic matter. Mulch is so vital for plants because they retain the moisture and also suppress weeds. So we not only are looking for drought tolerant plants or, or semi, you know, drought tolerant plants.
[00:48:54] We are looking for good drip system irrigation, but we also want to mulch three to four inches. And if we have this, this is what I call the perfect, well, nothing is perfect in gardening, but we’re setting ourselves up for success. But if we miss one of the steps, we could have some struggles. But having the drip system and mulching around our plants really helps for the plants to succeed.
[00:49:20] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Do you mulch right after you plant them, regardless of what time of year? Back in the day, I would always mulch in the fall. Right. To capture all that winter moisture. But I feel like I’m doing it wrong. I feel like I need to mulch maybe spring and fall.
[00:49:26] Maria Fox – Garden Coach and Owner of Time 2 Grow: Well, yes, exactly. So, we mulch in the spring because we want to give them that buffer for them to retain the moisture and then in the fall, so that we’re giving them the buffer from the cold.
[00:49:46] So there are different reasons why we mulch. Ideally, we get hold of a mulch that we don’t have to reapply so often, and that’s another thing I get my mulch from a local green waste place and that mulch is really, it’s a hundred percent green waste and it’s really heavy and thick, and I don’t have to mulch more than every other year, so it also depends on the mulch.
[00:50:12] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Oh, I just want to say one other good hack. I have an arborist friend and we just have a, like a relationship now where he’ll just come and dump mulch in my acreage and I’m like, whenever you want bud, just come on, drive back here. You know, because it’s good for him and it’s good for me and I’ve got the space.
[00:50:27] So reach out to your local arborist and see if maybe they’re trying to get rid of some, and I guess maybe landscaping companies too. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have extra. What’s your last tip, Kate?
[00:50:37] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Just get started. You don’t have to do your full landscape all at one time. You don’t have to rip out all your grass or your whole front yard.
[00:50:44] So I would just really look at areas that aren’t doing well, those hard to grow grass areas that are just your problem spots or places that you don’t spend time or you don’t walk or play and, you know, start with a hundred square feet, you can kind of convert larger sections over time, but I think that just getting started is the most important thing.
[00:51:07] And also you don’t have to go it alone. There are so many people that are offering support no matter where you live. So really look around for local resources, finding advice, and connect with a support system because there are lots and lots of people who, it’s their job to, to kind of help homeowners and businesses and commercial properties to make these changes and pick plants that you love.
[00:51:36] I think that, you know, really falling in love with this landscape is one of the joys of it. And so really think about how you want to engage with, with your landscape and what you want to attract in terms of pollinators or local wildlife. But to me, I just think that getting started is the most important thing.
[00:51:58] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Yes. Don’t be afraid to just jump in. I’ll just end on this little story. I was having a rough day the other day, and I went to go get my mail and I was, you know, just in that, that moment where everything was just harder that day, you know? And then as I’m walking to my mailbox, I just see a little like salmon pink tulip sticking out, and I have an irrigation ditch in the front of my house.
[00:52:21] And it was like on the edge of the ditch, like falling into the, it was like the worst placement for it, but it was just thriving and beautiful and had bloomed and I was like, thanks, tulip. Like you just made me stop for a second and realize everything’s not terrible and here you are, in this worst place ever being beautiful.
[00:52:37] So I love that. That’s like one of my favorite vibes of plants, they can just really turn it around for you.
[00:52:43] Kate Larson – Resource Central Water and Energy Program Director: Exactly.
[00:52:45] Jessi Janusee – Multimedia Storyteller: Thank you so much, Kate and Maria for joining me to talk all about turf replacement and native plants. It really was such a fun way to spend an hour of my day. If you’d like more information on Kate Larsen or Maria Fox and the work that they’re doing in Utah and Colorado, I’ll have the links to their stuff, their websites in the show notes, so you can click right on there and get more info, get connected to them.
[00:53:09] Maybe have Maria help you in your garden, or look at some of those resources from Resource Central and get your irrigation going, get your native plants going, do that big step to do the turf replacement. Learn a little bit about how you can get that turf buyback, all that good stuff. So those links will be in the show notes.
[00:53:28] Before we go into ‘What I like about the West’, we always have to do a little sponsor shout out.
First, and foremost, we would like to thank our impact sponsor FirstBank. As a financial provider, their philosophy of “banking for good” goes way beyond a bottom line for their customers, communities, and employees. We’d also like to thank our premier sponsor: Vision Ridge Partners; our signature sponsor: Kind Design; and our supporting sponsors: BSW Wealth Partners, the Greenway Foundation, Javelina, Jones + Co Modern Mercantile, and Utah Clean Energy. Our work would not be possible without their support.
If you’re interested in becoming a sponsor, we would absolutely love that, you can support all the work that WRA is doing to spearhead climate solutions in the West, as well as this podcast and help make sure that I get to continue to do this content.
[00:53:55] The link to that will be in our show notes. So, check there. Yeah. Show notes guys. That’s where you can find everything.
Alright, it’s time for my favorite little segment called “What I Like about The West’. This is where we ask you what you like about the West, and anybody can send in a recording. You can just do a little memo on your phone and email it to me, and then we’ll include it in the podcast.
[00:54:17] This week I wanted to do something a little bit different. We’ve been talking a lot about water. The last three episodes have been really water focused, so I was out hiking last weekend in the Sierra Nevadas. And I took a really great little recording of the runoff coming down the mountains and kind of flooding the valleys.
[00:54:37] So I just wanted to play about 40 seconds of water because that’s what we’re talking about. It’s so soothing. I love the sound of it and yeah, it’s your moment of Zen guys.
[Mountain Run Off Recording from the Snowpack of the Sierras, bubbling water, gusts of wind]
[00:55:32] Yeah, I could honestly listen to that recording of water all day, just on a loop. Just played in the background. Okay, that’s a wrap. Two Degrees Out West is a production from Western Resource Advocates. We are out here spearheading climate solutions in the West and making sure that the West is protected, it’s thriving, and it’s here for everybody to find out more about our work and how you can support and get on our email alert list go to westernresourceadvocates.org. And also, like I’m always saying, go in the show notes. That’s where you’ll find all the links. And if you do end up doing a turf replacement project and planting native plants, please send us some photos.
[00:56:06] We would love to share it on our Instagram. That would be so cool. You can send us an email with your photo or you could just tag us on social and we’ll re-share it. My emails in the show notes. Alright, everybody. Thank you so much for being here. I am really excited about our next episode, which will be about wildfires in the West, wildfire prevention, and thank you.
[00:56:26] I hope you’re having a beautiful spring and you’re getting outside and in your garden. See you next time.